Interview: Author Dave Thomas

by Satish Talim on May 24, 2009

Our Book Promotion: “Programming Ruby 1.9” starts soon. Win one of four books to be given out for active participation. The coolest thing? Author Dave Thomas will be on site to answer questions! Click here for more details. Here, in this brief interview, Satish Talim of RubyLearning talks to Dave Thomas.

Dave Thomas

Satish>> Dave, could you tell us something about yourself – your background, where you are based?

Dave>> Well, I was born in Cheshire, England (up by Liverpool). My family moved around when I was young, living in Canada and the US, before moving back to England in time for my secondary schooling. Back then, we took a group of exams when you were 15/16 (the O-levels) and another set at 18 (A-levels). A bunch of us took O-levels early, and the school was looking for something that would keep us busy. The local technical college had just started an A-level course in computers, so some of us wandered across the road and started taking it. I fell in love in the first week. We were creating Basic programs on paper tape using an ASR-33 teletype, then sending them over a 110 baud modem to our local town council’s ICL mainframe. And it was great! Somewhere in the middle of that year I wrote what it possibly the world’s only self-modifying Basic program—we were only allowed to store 5 programs up on the mainframe, so I wrote a program that stored other programs inside itself, and that would extract and run those programs on demand. The following summer I got a job writing code for a local water board, and I decided to change my college applications from mathematics to computer science. I ended up at Imperial College in London, which had an incredibly good course—I enjoyed every minute (apart, perhaps, from the statistics… :).

After graduating I worked for a small start-up. Initially the work was in the UK, but pretty soon I was traveling around the world. The work was great fun: we were doing all the weird interfacing between large systems and different kinds of front ends (including some early precursors to web browsers). I also worked for a small UK computer manufacturer in their skunk works. Probably the most interesting project there was the low-level interfaces to the hardware that did the checkout of the Giotto satellite that went to Comet Halley.

I met my wife on a project in New York. After we married, she moved back to the UK with me, but after our first boy was born we moved over to Dallas, Texas, where I’ve now been living for 15 years.

Andy Hunt and I met on a project in the mid 90s, and we’ve been working together ever since. We wrote The Pragmatic Programmer, and formed a business of the same name. A few years later, we used the experience we gained on the production side of that book to form our own publishing business. That business has grown and grown, and now takes the majority of our time. But, I still carve out time to play with software—that’s still my passion.

Programming Ruby 1.9

Satish>> Who’s the audience for your book – Programming Ruby 1.9? Does it teach Ruby programming or is it a reference book?

Dave>> I first came across Ruby about 10 years ago. At that time, almost no one outside Japan had heard of it. Andy and I both wanted to use Ruby in a book project we were considering, but discovered that the explanations of Ruby were getting in the way of the material that was supposed to be the topic of the book. So we put the original book project on hold, and instead started writing up notes on Ruby. We wrote those notes for developers who knew a programming language and who wanted to get good at Ruby. And we wrote the book we’d want to read ourselves: a fairly fast tutorial that skims through the main features, starting not at the bottom (variables and if statements) but instead at the top (classes and objects). After this, there’s a section on the environment in which Ruby programs run: basically describing how to use Ruby in the real world. We then documented all the built-in classes and methods that come with Ruby. So it’s really three books in one. Anyone who has programmed should find it an easy and instructive read. It both teaches Ruby and is a reference.

Satish>> What all has changed from the first edition of the book?

Dave>> Oh, a lot! The most obvious changes have been driven by Ruby itself. Ruby 1.9 has a ton of exciting new features. It’s multinationalisation support is unprecedented. It now has a far more functional feel. And a whole lot more classes and methods are now built in. I haven’t counted, but I’d guess the number of built-in methods has doubled since that first edition.

At the same time, much has changed in the Ruby community since that first edition. When the first edition came out, almost no one was using Ruby, so we didn’t really know good ways to do things. Now we know a lot more, and I’ve tried to incorporate all that experience that we’ve gained into the book.

Finally, I’ve taken literally thousands of pieces of individual feedback and used them to change the way I describe things. The tutorial in particular has changed a lot, and now contains many more self-contained example programs.

I’m very proud of this result—the book is both an evolution of the previous two books, but it’s also a fairly dramatic rewrite.

And, just to clarify, Programming Ruby 1.9 is technically not a new edition of the previous book. We originally planned it to be, as we anticipated that Ruby 1.9 would replace Ruby 1.8. But the reality is that many people are still using 1.8, so we wanted to keep the second edition of the PickAxe (which covers 1.8) around as well. Booksellers automatically pull a prior edition out of stock if you release a new one, and we didn’t want that to happen, so Programming Ruby 1.9 is technically a brand new book, rather than being a new edition.

Satish>> Tell us something about “The Pragmatic Bookshelf”.

Dave>> Andy and I wrote both The Pragmatic Programmer and the first edition of Programming Ruby for Addison Wesley. But, unlike most authors, we did all the typesetting, layout, indexing, and so on, ourselves.

I wrote most of the book production system for this exercise. I wanted to avoid that kinds of problems most technical book authors face. I wanted to keep my source code in real program files, where it could be run and tested, rather that cut-and-paste it into the book. I wanted to use plain text to store the book’s content, because then we could use programmer’s tools, such as source code control, grep, and diff. And I wanted the books to look nice.

After finishing the Ruby book, we got back to our consulting business. And we noticed that many of the teams we were working with didn’t use basic practices—things such as unit testing, source code control, and automation—that we considered essential to successfully completing software projects. So we decided to start writing a set of three books on these areas. We were going to write them with Addison Wesley, but we got to thinking: we already had the technology to create the books: all we’d need is access to a book printer and a way of distributing the result. How hard could that be? Well, that’s what we did. And we’re still discovering just how hard the rest is!

But we’ve had a blast. The Pragmatic Bookshelf isn’t like other publishers. For a start, we’re a publisher for developers. We use developer tools to get books created. When you sign up as an author, we create a Subversion repository where you write your book. You don’t use something like Word to author your text. Instead you write directly in the markup language that we use to create the final typeset product. This means that you’re always working with what will become the final book—we don’t take what you type and then get someone else to typeset it using a different tool. This immediacy means we can get a book into print faster that just about anyone else. If you want, you can build that final version on your machine, just as we do when we send a book to the printer. Or you can let our continuous build system do it for you.

We also automate just about everything we can. For example, if an author has an updated version of a book that they’d like to push out to their readers, I can issue a single rake command (rake is a build tool written in Ruby) will create up-to-date PDF, mobi, and epub versions of the book.

The heavy use of tools and automation means that our overhead is really low. And that in turn means we can pay our authors well: we pay 3 to 4 times more as a royalty than other publishers we know.

It also helps that we really aren’t publishers, so we don’t know how things are supposed to be done. I think we were the first people to offer PDF versions of all our titles. (We now offer epub and mobi versions too, for use on eBook devices and mobile phones). We were the first publisher to have a solid beta-book program, where we give readers early access to books as they are in development. I think we were the first publisher to create electronic versions of our books with no DRM, instead adding a simply watermark to the books and relying on our customers’ honesty.

From my personal perspective, it’s a very heady business: I get to help select books that we publish based on books that I’d personally like to read. How cool is that?

Satish>> I know that it is too early to say, but looking back are there some topics that you now wish should have been covered or dropped from the book?

Dave>> Not really: I only just finished the book, and I made all the changes I wanted to make while I was rewriting it.

Every now and then I think that maybe I should split it into two books, but I still think it’s valuable to have all the content in one place. Having it in one volume also makes it cheaper for its readers.

Satish>> Anything else you would like to add?

Dave>> Although I know this is supposed to be a book promotion, I’d like to take to opportunity here to talk about Ruby, too. I love the language, and after more than 10 years still find new things that surprise and delight me. I’d love to talk with your members about those things—about the importance of loving and respecting the tools that you use. I’d love to talk about Ruby 1.9, and about all the various issues that surround the language. Let’s make programming fun again!

Thank you Dave. In case you have any queries and/or questions, kindly post your questions here (as comments to this blog post) and Dave would be glad to answer.

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Posted by Satish Talim

{ 3 comments… read them below or add one }

daniel lopes May 26, 2009 at 11:16 pm

Great interview,I really like pragprog books and very fan of your business model focused in developers.

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Todd Emory June 1, 2009 at 10:39 pm

Greetings, PragDave :-)

Thank you for dropping by. I own many of the PragProg Titles and swear by them.

As a budding Rubyist (I mostly work with .NET) I’ve noticed others like myself being mostly hobbyists. Some organizations across the industrial spectrum are starting to embrace technologies based in Ruby (Rails, WATIR) but they are still few and far between. As a “Ruby Evangelist” what do you see as the adoptive curve for the language to make into the enterprise-level mainstream?

Thank you in advance!

Cheers,

Todd

Reply

Dave Thomas June 5, 2009 at 7:18 am

Todd:

I think Ruby is already there in many organizations Thanks in part to Rails, many companies find the benefits of Ruby greatly outweigh their concerns about adopting what that might consider to be a somewhat unusual technology. Chad Fowler and I give Ruby training across the US, and we find people from companies large and small in every class.

Ultimately, I don’t want to force companies to use Ruby. If it has benefits for them, they’ll use it. Our job as evangelists is to try to help them identify those benefits, while at the same time not overselling them.

Dave

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